About self voting and other demons! - Acerca del voto a uno mismo y otros demonios!

in Proof of Brain2 years ago (edited)

Much has already been written about self-voting, so what I will do here will be to add a new point of view that so far I have not seen in any of the posts I have found in the HIVE communities in which I participate where it has been written about.

First of all and as always I want to make my position clear.

I agree with self voting (except in certain cases).


Self voting

Most of the posts in which I read arguments and comments against self voting are written by people who have a considerable amount of the token which allows them, thanks to the curation they perform, to earn much larger amounts than writing a post a day and giving a self vote to it.

The same does not happen when you have very little amount of the token. We all know how the system works, the more you have, the more you give but also the more you receive and the less you have, the opposite. You give less and receive much less. And let it be clear, I am not criticizing the system, I am simply saying how it works to make my point much clearer.

I can understand what these ideas against self-voting are based on but I do not share them because they are ideas, as I see it, created from the point of view of someone who can afford, in this case, not to vote to himself. It is normal for this to happen, I imagine. If it happens in society how can it not happen here too in a community formed by human beings? As always, the way of seeing things starts to change depending on the existing needs.

That someone is self voting does not automatically mean that he is abusing the reward pool or that he is greedy.


Someone who is just starting, who nobody knows and therefore does not receive votes, it is normal for him to give self votes to his posts. Someone who has little HP or even a lot, and I'm talking about, for example, 50 000 HP which for many here is quite a lot, will surely give self votes to his own posts. With 50 000 HP the 100% vote does not reach two HIVEs. If someone believes that a person with 50 000 HP who self-votes his daily post affects in any way the reward pool I invite you to explain it to me in the comments.

And if this user with 50 000 HP, to continue with the example, is a normal person he will surely start reading other posts in his feed after posting his own and will vote them too if he like them. He will do this because we are curious by nature and besides, the simple fact of being able to give something in exchange for a satisfaction (in this case a vote for a post that we like) is rewarding for every normal human being.

It has always seemed to me that when discussing issues that are more of a moral dilemma, it is complicated to form opinions because, depending on the point of view from which you look at it, it can vary profoundly.

And this problem of self voting is a purely moral dilemma.


As I said at the beginning, I agree with auto voting except in certain cases, such as spamming posts or comments and self voting them through one's own account or related accounts with the pure purpose of generating profit (whether you are a "whale" or not).

Usually this type of behavior is discovered and the community tends to counteract it, as well as plagiarism.

If you have the possibility of earning tokens from nothing more than the curations of other posts and votes you get from others by writing without giving yourself a self-vote my respects for getting there. But don't expect others to follow your example and please don't try to impose your way of thinking using your power. Where I come from, that would be called something like "dictatorship" and it is worse than a simple self vote.

Whether you agree with my opinion or not, I will be more than happy to read your comments on the subject and debate about it.



Pd: I know that in POB the numbers are different, so the numerical scales are reduced. The 50 000 HP example can be transpolated to 300 POBP or so.



--- En Español ---


Ya se ha escrito mucho sobre el voto a uno mismo (auto voto), así que lo que haré aquí será adicionar un nuevo punto de vista que hasta ahora no he visto en ninguno de los posts que he encontrado en las comunidades de HIVE en las que participo donde se ha escrito sobre ello.

Antes que nada y como siempre quiero dejar clara mi postura.

Yo estoy de acuerdo con el auto voto (exceptuando en ciertos casos).


Self voting

La mayoría de los posts en los que leo argumentos y comentarios en contra del auto voto son escritos por personas que tienen una cantidad considerable del token que les permite, gracias a la curación que realizan, ganar cantidades mucho mayores que escribiendo un post al día y dando un auto voto al mismo.

No pasa lo mismo cuando tienes muy poca cantidad del token. Todos sabemos como funciona el sistema, mientras más tienes , más das pero también más recibes y mientras menos tienes pues, todo lo contrario. Das menos y recibes mucho menos. Y que quede claro, no estoy criticando el sistema, simplemente estoy diciendo como funciona para hacer mucho más claro mi punto.

Puedo entender en que se basan esas ideas en contra del auto voto pero no las comparto pues son unas ideas, según lo veo, creadas desde el punto de vista de alguien que puede darse el lujo, en este caso, de no votarse a si mismo. Es normal que pase esto me imagino. Si pasa en la sociedad como no va a pasar aquí también en una comunidad formada por seres humanos? Como siempre, la forma de ver las cosas empieza a cambiar dependiendo de las necesidades existentes.

Que alguien se de auto voto no significa automáticamente que esta abusando de la piscina de recompensas o que sea avaricioso.


Alguien que está empezando, al que nadie conoce y por lo tanto no recibe votos es normal que se de auto votos a sus posts. Alguien que tiene poco HP he incluso mucho, y estoy hablando de, por ejemplo, 50 000 HP que para muchos acá es bastante cantidad, seguramente se dará auto voto a sus posts. Con 50 000 HP el voto al 100% no llega a los dos HIVEs. Si alguien cree que una persona con 50 000 HP que se auto vote a su post diario afecta en alguna manera la piscina de recompensas los invito a que me lo explique en los comentarios.

Y si este usuario con 50 000 HP, para seguir con el ejemplo, es una persona normal seguramente se pondrá a leer otros posts en su feed después de escribir el suyo y los votará también si le gustan. Esto lo hará porque somos curiosos por naturaleza y además, el simple hecho de poder dar algo a cambio de una satisfacción (en este caso un voto por un post que nos gusta) es gratificante para todo ser humano normal.

Siempre me ha parecido que a la hora de discutir temas en los que se trata mas bien un dilema moral es complicado hacerse opiniones porque, según el punto de vista con que se mire, la misma puede variar profundamente.

Y este problema del auto voto es un dilema puramente moral.


Como decía al principio, yo estoy de acuerdo con el auto voto exceptuando en ciertos casos, como por ejemplo hacer spam de posts o comentarios y auto votarlos a través de la propia cuenta o cuentas afines con el puro fin de generar ganancias (seas "ballena" o no).

Normalmente este tipo de actuación se descubre y la comunidad tiende a contrarrestarlo, así como también el plagio.

Si usted tiene la posibilidad de ganar tokens nada mas de las curaciones y de los votos que consiga de los demás escribiendo sin darse auto voto mis respetos por haber llegado hasta ahí. Pero no espere que otros sigan su ejemplo y por favor se lo pido, no trate de imponer su forma de pensar usando su poder. De donde yo vengo, eso se llamaría algo así como "dictadura" y es peor que un simple auto voto.

Si estás de acuerdo con mi opinión o no, igual estaré mas que encantado de poder leer tus comentarios sobre el tema y debatir sobre el mismo.



Pd: Yo se que en POB los números son diferentes, entonces las escalas numéricas se reducen. El ejemplo de 50 000 HP se puede transpolar a 300 POBP mas o menos.


Edit: Correction of grammatical errors.


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As I mentioned a little while ago in another post, I never saw a problem with self-voting because until then I never had the opportunity to see myself growing so much and my votes are worth something big. I believe that the bigger it gets here, the greater the responsibility to actively participate in the curatorships and delegations,
the self vote becomes secondary in the face of everything that can be gained by being active!


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I believe that the bigger it gets here, the greater the responsibility to actively participate in the curatorships and delegations

Spiderman's uncle said it very clearly .... "With great powers always come great responsibilities". An irrefutable truth!💪

Cheers for keeping things in check. It is very easy to start getting influenced by the thought processes of others and if there is no one countering, it ends up snowballing.

Responsibility is the aim of the game when it comes to bigger stakeholders(pretty sure I type that word at least three times a day on this platform, lol). I have no issues with anyone who is self-voting with a smaller stake and is engaging, producing great content, and being an overall cool person in general. I don't have a problem with wankers who do that also, self-voting and being a "good dude" shouldn't be mutually exclusive.


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Cheers for keeping things in check. It is very easy to start getting influenced by the thought processes of others and if there is no one countering, it ends up snowballing.

I will do it from time to time ... I like to do it even though I get in trouble many times for it 😅

Responsibility is the aim of the game when it comes to bigger stakeholders(pretty sure I type that word at least three times a day on this platform, lol).

I even think that responsibility is the aim of the life game so, if you do it good there will do also good here 😉

I don't have a problem with wankers who do that also, self-voting and being a "good dude" shouldn't be mutually exclusive.

True 🤣

if you do it good there will do also good here 😉

Well, I don't know how well that relates to my case! lol. I guess life has improved a lot recently so maybe.


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Was more about if you are a good person in real life you are also a good person here... same with the opposite 😁

This is an awesome post, because so far I've been a fierce defender against selfvoting, but your post made me look at this in another way.

I had decided to myself that I would not vote any selfvoters (if I can spot them, propably voted already) and leave a message about it (just saying what I do, not saying it's not allowed). But I think I fit this category that you said about having a large stake (only on pob, my HP is really low) and don't need to do it . But that's not the case of a majority here, so selfvoting sounds like a way to get a little more.

I totally agree with you about spam, comments and second profiles. This is no good because it just drains the pool. But maybe it could be really ok with some guidelines about how to do it. Of course some will try to exploit it, but that's unfortunately just how things are when we have people+coins.

Thanks for sharing this. It made me reflect and change some points in my mind about this issue.

Now I would like to hear you opinion on the curating accounts. Do you think is fine to selfvote with them or would it fall into the category of a second profile, since they are normally big stakers? I think that if they share the vote around maybe is not an issue? What do you think?


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Thanks for sharing this. It made me reflect and change some points in my mind about this issue.

This is the idea, read about it and check if our vision on the subject is correct. Hopefully and everyone who has that idea like the one you had can review their vision on the subject as well.

Do you think is fine to selfvote with them or would it fall into the category of a second profile, since they are normally big stakers? I think that if they share the vote around maybe is not an issue? What do you think?

It is as I said before, voting for yourself is your own decision and you know perfectly well when you are taking advantage or not. In the case that you present to me, with another account for curation in your possession (an account of which you have the voting key) voting for yourself is still a moral dilemma. Did you say publicly, when you asked for proxies, that you were going to do it or do you do it in a hidden way so that nobody sees it (the latter is very difficult to do here because all transactions are visible). If you said it in your announcement and people still delegated power to you, it's up to you.

I imagine that if you write only one post a day and you vote the post with that account where the delegations are, it is not so bad. How much power do you have delegated? How much do you affect the reward pool? Do you write once a day with your account and also with the curation account? That would be two posts a day. And I could go on asking because the truth is that there are many variables to judge this type of performance.


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great post; self-voting is complicated as many mentioned that e.g., being a minnow doesn't seem to be a problem when self voting. But being an orca is already getting a bit questionable.. Currently I am self-voting my posts that come out every day or so, is that a problem? I think only if I were not to spread out votes to the community. So I am actually supporting 80-100 accounts with my votes almost on a daily basis.

So I think one should use it reasonably and not overuse it. Upvoting one's own comments e.g., is definitely a no-no


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Currently I am self-voting my posts that come out every day or so, is that a problem?

Just to be able to answer I visited your profile and you write a single post "almost" every day (not even every day). Plus ...

So I am actually supporting 80-100 accounts with my votes almost on a daily basis.

What does your conscience tell you about all this? In the end you know the answer yourself. I personally think you are doing nothing wrong but quite the opposite :)

I think one should use it reasonably and not overuse it. Upvoting one's own comments e.g., is definitely a no-no

Yep!


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interesting point of view. here is another one, i am voting all my friends that i invited here on hive, and this is close to self vote, morally speaking, but i want them to feel they are gaining something from hive. many of them are also acomplished writers and sooner or later will do well without my vote. but it is important to be motivated when yoy start. also, i have my favorite writers in here that i vote on almost every post. sometimes they write well, sometimes just average, nevertheless, i support them.


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... i am voting all my friends that i invited here on hive, and this is close to self vote, morally speaking, but i want them to feel they are gaining something from hive... also, i have my favorite writers in here that i vote on almost every post.

I feel very sad to have to tell you that you are not alone in all this 😋. I imagine that almost everyone does the same. I do 🙃. There is nothing wrong with supporting your friends, much less if they are just starting out. HIVE is not a place where one should behave differently from how would behave in the real world and in the real world one supports his friends and they are even given preference over unknown people. It is a normal behavior to which we tend unconsciously.

From my point of view you are just being a good friend like every normal human being 👍

There's a mentality to consider as well-when someone stands near the front of the store, others think there is something worthwhile within the store. When I post something and self-vote, it shows others perusing for a good read that there's already a vote pegged to it and it, in my opinion, lends itself to saying-Someone read this and thought it was good enough to vote, perhaps I should take a look...

I may be wrong, but that psychology works in a store, I don't see why not on the interweb... :)


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I agree with you, I also see no problem in someone with 300 POB practicing self-voting.

Even people with 1,000 POB do not see a problem, I do not believe that that daily vote on the post can change a lot, different if he commented on posts and voted 100% on his comments too

There is nothing to stop him from doing this, but it goes into the question that you raised, of being morally legal

I will never fail to curate the little ones who self-vote because I believe that their small vote serves a lot to help them grow and over time they will learn to curate and where to spread those votes, or even if he never gives powerup and always liquidating, in the long run it is not worth his effort

Interacting with the community will generate a much greater reward, so I believe that if the person is underpowered and practicing self-voting he is doing it the wrong way if he seeks profitability, where he should go after commenting on the radar aspect of the whales that yes would be more productive, in that case the auto vote becomes a very small value close to all the construction that it can have


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Interacting with the community will generate a much greater reward, so I believe that if the person is underpowered and practicing self-voting he is doing it the wrong way if he seeks profitability, where he should go after commenting on the radar aspect of the whales that yes would be more productive, in that case the auto vote becomes a very small value close to all the construction that it can have

I will answer to this with part of your comment

... their small vote serves a lot to help them grow and over time they will learn ...

People need to learn. It is important!


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!PIZZA


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I don't think anyone has issues with a minnow upvoting themselves? I could be wrong about that. Usually the grievance is outsized rewards for low-effort posts. The few squiggly lines on a chart making $100 kind.


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I don't think anyone has issues with a minnow upvoting themselves? I could be wrong about that.

It is more against the action itself, not so much for the reward, although the reward exists is part of the game. If there were no reward, people would not be interested at all if you vote for yourself or not ;)

Usually the grievance is outsized rewards for low-effort posts. The few squiggly lines on a chart making $100 kind.

Another one of my exceptions to agree to vote for oneself. But these kinds of people are, in general, morally questionable. Is normal for them to try to play the system.


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If there were no reward, people would not be interested at all if you vote for yourself or not ;)

True... we often see politicians voting for themselves come election day and that's socially accepted.


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I often vote for myself...but even right now, my vote is worth less than 0.01 Hive :) I delegate all my HP out.


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Yeah, no one's going to begrudge that 0.01 Hive upvote. After a while I just decided the 0.01 wasn't worth it but i guess it compounds over time. 100 posts and that's 1 Hive lol :)


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But do not expect others to follow your example and please do not try to impose your way of thinking using your power. Where I come from, that would be called something like "dictatorship" and it is worse than a simple self-vote.

True....that is a wonderful advice from you @juanmiguelsalas


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Please see my related post here. Your going to have a 130 POB on this post, will the 0.8 POB from your self-vote make a difference to you? What about various other users that decline to give you a vote worth 5 POB, or 15 POB because of your self-vote? Will you miss those?


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Please see my related post here. Your going to have a 130 POB on this post, will the 0.8 POB from your self-vote make a difference to you?

And they will make a big difference to you? I see from your post that you have a moral problem with people voting for themselves and I can understand that you don't do it and don't like it. Now, if you, as you say here ...

If my job as a curator is to up-vote content and I happen to produce that content. Arguably, I should up-vote that content rather than make an exception because its my own work. However, there is a conflict of interest in me deciding to vote on my own work.

... have a job as a curator, which in your case is very clear (at least in POB) by the amount of tokens you have and the vote you can give. If you do the same as me then it could be quite questionable. But I don't have that amount of tokens and I don't see myself here as a curator, or at least I don't see it as a job. I give votes to things I like and some friends I support but it's not a job. So I don't see any conflict of interest in me voting for myself as well. I see more conflict of interest in a curator who stops curating good content simply because he or she has this kind of way of thinking.

What about various other users that decline to give you a vote worth 5 POB, or 15 POB because of your self-vote? Will you miss those?

To be honest I'm not really going to miss them because I never saw them 😌, it's not like they gave them to me and then they saw my vote and took them away. And if that were to happen they have every right but ... I still don't see what they get out of doing that.

I still think that votes to oneself as long as they are not abusive are fine. It's like I'm the owner of a restaurant but I can't eat in it because the man who sends the customers doesn't like the owners to eat in his restaurants.

Pd: I saw that @calumam named me in a comment and put my post in the guide you made (by the way very good guide, lots of details,) answering a comment. I was writing something over there but well, you showed up here.


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Somewhere between the amount of stake you have and the amount I have, some users will flag a user for self-voting. Where that point is, I'm not sure. It's better they read posts like yours and decide to take the risk rather than taking the risk because of what I've written.

Somewhere between the amount of stake you have and the amount I have, some users will flag a user for self-voting. Where that point is, I'm not sure.

I would say more close to the amount you have 😄 Look, as far as I know if there is real abuse (and I'm not talking about voting one post a day if the same user with big stake curates in addition to that) there will always be those who can respond. Maybe since I've never been in a position of power like that I don't know what it's like. I can imagine it but not really know it, my vision is that of the average and from that point of view I speak.

It's better they read posts like yours and decide to take the risk rather than taking the risk because of what I've written.

It would be best if they could decide for themselves without any external pressure or bias.

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Cheers!


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And here come some

!PIZZA

and

!BEER

meanwhile 🙂


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Thanks for the pizza and beer. 🍺🍕 I like them both

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